indymedia newswire item hilite series derivative trails it fractally and presents roughly a quarter of the best thereof.
- initial selection by poetpiet selected by poetpiet yet again (who now wonders how many to go before the item or better yet best letter of the aeon can be announced). . ..

indy10, 11, 12 and 13 indymedia newswire item hilites hilit
 

pietecnokiller repiets; comments on recent BB bits and defendants thereof at/as 58289 (for some reason it doubled at 58291)

by rabble 6:00am Fri Aug 10 '01
 Oh! Colorful incohearence ---- WHY? This is colorful but as far as i can tell it's totally incohearent! ....... sorry

We Glads love it for it tickles us Pink!! by Arena of many Colors and that we are 10:28am Fri Aug 10 '01  Piet,  We who are about to die, Hail and Salute You!!  We glads love colorful posts
 

58076  don't line up our camera's to be smashed (and/or film the predictable yet again) ----- We need worthyer and more effective targets for the hi-tec extenshowns of our loving arms than dumb orderswallowing dogs (I allow no offense to be taken, you o so sensitive pillars of the law), since the magic to win battles out in the open will most likely be missing for a long while yet, however noble the intent. By contrast, our success depends on how much Justice (from rockdust to races and all species in between) we (commit to?) bring to bear, how well we spread our arsenal into problem areas to resurface with wake up call factshows that jolt the ensconced and unawares.
 

The Case for Confrontation, by the same author:  http://uk.indymedia.org/display.php3?article_id=673 (((19 comments))) The accepted view (wheeled out again by INPEG in Prague on September 27) is that property damage and violence damages sympathy for the causes we are trying to address. With a total lack of irony, the non-violence lobby mirrors the system they apparently oppose: the conclusions drawn (from media reports) by affluent, overwhelmingly-white, western minorities are more valuable than those drawn by the (not-so-white) less economically-influential majority, from politically impotent (globally speaking) countries.- - - - right, now, about your use of the word 'apparantly': I assume and am almost sure you mean to imply 'appear to', adding 'only' to strenghten it maybe or 'seemingly' to tautol it up a bit praps? Anyway, you intend to convey that we are supposedly nothing but selfdeluding, 'without irony' etc. Now, you on the other hand are not only without irony but far worse, purely malignant since violence and property damage are still the opponents basic tactics despite their impressive imprimatur of postal, profitable and pompous paper shuffle and sign the gyn brand that baby act. So, who did you say was aping the big baddies again? Scare yourself with 'm no longer, pick up a mirror, hold in front and stare a while. Oh, and now that I am at it, leading into the next item here, dress up and disguise sorts of subterfuge ease used by your kind of militant is indeed what evokes the disgust rage and disrespect for the lose sandedness offhandedness of the movement; the dissolving identity, impersonal, primordially soupy aspects of their pesky adversary / wage justifications not a whit more than the same tools handled by the bosses, it's just that they are harder to punish for it. But don't worry, they will join us if we do a fair fight sort of show with them instead of making them look as stupid as paralytics caught between similar fires back and front. ------ Yes the system is violent, the state is violent, the police, the armies, the industry, the agriculture, the distribution of land, the privatisation, the profit, the sham they call democracy and the garbage they all information - are all brutally fucking violent.  -----Well, pal, guess what, so are you in a moody broody, morosely moral sort of way -------
 

<<<Trying to call attention to the work of Georg Friedrich Knapp (thinking Cato would spearhead that sort of effort); >>>> 58973 - 58687 contends Cato is Murdochite. ?   Lemme proffer some evidence pointing in a wholly other direction lest the baby-bath-bother keeps us from a pleachingly pleached jungledebungle habit@ yet again (see Ps) 58687 by slackdude calls for an anti-libertarian argument list (14 comments) and equates Cato with Murdock (??); most of 'm seem to agree. ... .... ... Knapp-print.htm 85K -- Knapp brings out the marriage of initiative and restraint; trade and statecraft; basically it's a tug of war between the more selfish, quick, rash, bent on proving themselves while testosterone (and when allowed to concentrate adrenalin) poisoned youngsters on the one hand and the very old, young and or pregnant on the other. Free enterprise and social security.  Wes Burt has some interesting formulas to help you see part of this problem too.
Ps: pleaching is tying young limbs together affording very strong and living architecture for those with foresite and pay sense; we witnessed quite the opposite here in A'dam yesterday; an expert had seen fit to disqualify a tree (brownrot yes but dangerous for those with healthy respect for trees? No) from toleration (near one of them very expensive renovates on the snob side of the park) and he brought in a GIANT crane impacting the soil yet again (as they did all summer all over the back end) and running thigh thick limbs through a chipper all day (so much for a sense of restful Tolkienesque scenery during that evil spell of brute force.  This story is symptomatic for the neoliberal encroachment on things wonderful; for them being priceless is equivalent to being cheap.  How can you expect to keep little scooters into the park as long as you allow these sort of monstrosities and/or for that matter expect to catch illegally operated with legal ones, for one thing you can't even hear illegally operated ones if you run one yourself?    ----------  Ps2: I come up first and second when googling for Georg Friedrich Knapp; ain't that a nice thing to discover and way to finish and conclude this post? ------ the link below is a translation by google from the french piece cited in third place after me; I'm sticking it into /prfr/lolocalbal.htm (98K)

 the first comment: Drugs are bad..mmkay..by Mr. Hat 11:35am Wed Aug 15 '01  mmkay..drugs are bad..don't do drugs..mmkay...don't do drugs cause drugs are bad..mmkay..--------- the second (mine): how many more times need I repotpiet this?  -AINT DONEdidNOdrugs FOR THE FULL AND OVER 10 YEARS I RESIDED IN A'DAM SO FAR (very minor exceptions, hardly any, practically none; half a lung full of cannabis quarterly aint overdoin' it I should think.   Now as for Knapp: I am fixin to select the best refs to him taken from: //groups.yahoo.com/  group/gang8/messagesearch?query=knapp 25 mentions of Knapp in a year or so here (a group discussing creditary economics); about double that much in the up to now about 4000 posts since early 99 ----- I agree the link to the translation (from french) doesn't offer the very best on Knapp contentwise; it does show how google translates french though (verdienstelijk = passably well I call it); it seems only the beginning paragraphs are ever tackled though, this could be dependent on workload, don't know yet. Ps: thank for the Murdoch post guys!!!!! It's my next read.  accuracy.org/articles/cato.htm Ps about those trees: guess they were sick; their insides smelled really bad, but still, I just happen to be charmed by manual tool toting; bit of a gladiator that way I guess. -
 
 
 

--------  ---------
Georg Friedrich Knapp wrote a classic called 'the state theory of money' (which I would state differently, namely the theory of state money, to reflect the emphasis Knapp placed on the importance of a tax-based token redemption and circulation) which according to the french item google cites after my two ones (links at above mentioned indy file) has such a load of neologisms that they feel entitled to characterize it as hermetic: Autometallism. Authylism. Lytric value. System morphic. Practical pensatoire. Chartalism. Hylogenic, autogenic means of payment. Amphibolite. Amphitropique. Monotropique. Classifications platic, genetic, dromic, functional. Metal hylic. Hylogenic standard. Orthotypic currency. Paratypic currency (currency notale). Metalloplatic currency. Papyroplatic currency. Chrysogenic, argyroplatic currency. Synchartism. Currency girale. Hylodromy. Hylolepsy. Hylophantism. Payments centric, epicentric, apocentric, paracentric, anepicentric, epitrapezic, metacentric. Currency valuta, accessory. Monargyrism. Monochrysism.    http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/gang8/message/867  these gang members managed to sort of cite Georg Friedrich Knapp (in passing) about 50 times in 4000 posts since 99; a(n ample) sample: Date: Mon Mar 20, 2000 3:53 pm Subject: [gang8] Is "creditary" a better term than "cartalist" Dear Stephanie and Randy, I have received a good criticism from Stephen Zarlenga, an anti-monetarist monetary theorist in New York. His criticisms lead me to wonder whether I should not change the title of my paper to "The Creditary/Monetarist Debate in Historical Perspective." What I am talking about is something broader than cartalist theory -- it is really creditary theory. At the very least, I should introduce two changes. First of all, in the third paragraph of page 1: Advocates of what Georg Friedrich Knapp called the State Theory of money (referred to as cartalists in the present set of essays) attribute its value to the government's acceptance of it in payment of taxes or related fees. At the outset of his State Theory of Money (1905), Knapp states this basic principle:"Money is a creature of the law. A theory of money therefore must deal with legal history." Inasmuch as debt, savings and credit are institutional phenomena, a functional financial theory must deal with the ways in which savings are channeled to take the form of financial claims on the economy's assets and income. Each economy has its own pattern of channeling credit into the creation of wealth, the buildup of financial claims on existing assets and revenue streams, and the bidding up of asset prices. One policy focus of such analysis is to explain how governments may use the financial dimension of fiscal policy to manage aggregate demand and to steer credit to the most economically productive applications. Monetarists oppose such regulation. Believing that credit functions best when separated from the state, they attribute (and measure) money's value simply to its purchasing power over goods and services. Their policy prescriptions (e.g., IMF-type austerity programs) tend to spur asset-price inflation while wages and commodity prices are subjected to debt deflation. Second, at the conclusion: As described in the preceding pages, the creditary/monetarist debate has broad implications for the quantity tautology of money, MV = PT. Under the creditary approach, "M" should be represented by the entire credit supply (C), the "P" should be the price of assets - stock market, bond and real estate prices - as well as commodity prices (or, goods and service prices could be dropped altogether as being derivative), and the "Q" should be the volume of these assets (A; or perhaps a weighted volume of trade in these assets as compared to the much smaller volume of trade in final goods and services)! In this formulation, (Credit x the ever-tautological "V" = PA, that is a weighted index of asset prices, "P," multiplied by the volume of transactions "A," as measured for instance by clearing-house volume). This broader, creditary approach would make it clear that when governments manage interest rates, they attempt in the first instance to manipulate the prices of bonds (and secondarily stocks and real estate). Via their role as collateral for the credit system, these assets determine the economy's overall supply of credit. And in turn, the credit supply determines asset prices. Commodity prices are affected in a more incidental and indirect, derivative manner. The monetary historian will immediately recognize the relevance of the creditary/monetarist debate to the bullionist debates of the early 19th century between the banking (monetarist) and currency (creditary) schools. In this respect, my use of the term "cartalist" in this paper leads to a creditary approach to the financial system, encompassing debt management as well as fiscal and commodity-price management. My emphasis in the above analysis is on the financial dynamics at work, not on the fiat character of monetary management (which would represent a particular subcategory within the cartalist approach). Geoffrey, what do you think of this? I enclose Mr. Zarlenga's comments that prompted me to make these changes:-------- Dear Michael, I now have a chance to offer these thoughts on your Cartalist/Monetarist debate paper, and hope you receive them in the same spirit in which they are offered. First it is so refreshing and rare (for me) to read such conclusions and thoughts from an economist. I far prefer the strength of presentation in the final version, compared to the previous. On the one hand, its crucial to maintain objectivity and distance; but it would be silly to ignore that there is a battle raging around these issues. I think you have struck the right balance in the final version; though its enemies may attack the plain spoken nature of the presentation. Its their first mortal sin - writing economics in a way that what's really at stake can be clearly understood. On the broad theme, I have one major reservation. That is framing the issue primarily on a cartalist/monetarist basis. What comes to mind are some past monetary debates such as the Banking School versus the Currency School after 1810 in England; and the "inflationist" versus the "sound money" debate after the initial debacle caused by the 2nd Bank of the US, in the 1820's; and the "honest money" versus the Greenbacks of the 1860's and 70's. The reservation stems from three problems. First - the divisions were formed in such a way that there was an element of "truth" and some falsehood on both sides of the issue (except perhaps the Greenbacks, which were mainly slurred and had very few real weaknesses). What was needed was not really a debate, but a clarification of the issues and exactly what they meant in practice. In matters affecting public policy, it has always been dangerous to allow economic arguments to go off into theory. Whoever has the loudest horn (i.e. the most money) will be able to frame the theoretical debate, and all they really have to do is create theoretical uncertainty (while they continue to control practical policy). That's not hard to do, with both strengths and weaknesses present on each side. Second - Its important that the discussion not be restricted to professional economists, but reach deeper into the thinking population. Amongst that wider group Cartalist is generally unknown and Monetarist may have different meanings than you apply. For example it is associated with the "quantity theory" of money, which in its broadest applications has some validity. That wider group would eventually understand Cartalist, as "fiat"(which has been successfully maligned), and would be essentially correct in doing so; but they might not appreciate that while such a money system is abstract, it is not necessarily arbitrary. If these observations are correct, then a deeper presentation of the definitions/attributes of cartalist and monetarist would help; indicating/admitting potential strengths and weaknesses of each side. Not to do so, invites simple-minded attack or makes it easier. Third - though the past money debates involved the various schools of economics; the newspapers, and at times even the general populations, they were really shams. The real operative question was seldom considered: that is whether some gang/class would be able to get (or keep) its hands on control of the nation's money system; or whether it would be more fairly constituted in the hands of elected/appointed officials, operating under some reasonable and flexible monetary constitution, as would be appropriate for a democracy. Perhaps stressing the "stage managed" nature of such debate would throw the managers off guard, and focus the audience onto the real theoretical argument: as an institution of society and the law, shouldn't the monetary power belong in government. Then on the practical side, examining the US's real experience with both types of money control, clearly comes down in favor of government control. (my chapter 16 demonstrates it for the US up to the Greenback period, and it holds true from then on too). The one great US error of monetary management was when Van Buren, my neighbor up in Kinderhook, took the financier's metallist concept of money seriously and implemented it for real! Also the answer to this real question is a lot easier for real people to figure out and understand, than the theoretical debate. This reminds me of a sales principle in closing sales: when an objection is made that is not the real objection, sales professionals just ignore it because trying to answer it crystallizes it; makes it real; and accomplishes little, because it wasn't the real problem anyway. Your final version makes your paper interesting to a much broader audience; and adds a power of a different magnitude to it. I'd modestly suggest you continue to push the envelope in that way, also bringing to bear the vast factual information you have of what's been going on in practice, in America over the past generation. Your analysis of short term non productive lending practices of our banking system is a powerful argument against the type of private control that now exists. I'm going to have to learn about the St. Simonians. Can you recommend a good source to start with on them? I've finished Polanyi's Great Transformation and found it excellent, though tortuously written. In trying to analyze the possible reasons why his conclusion for future expectations could have gone so far afield, I think Polanyi, like Max Weber before him, greatly underestimated the power implications of the money issuing privilege being in private hands. "The Magic Checkbook" I call it. I managed to get this point on Weber into my Chapter 7, over the strong objections of the German editor, as Weber is still a deity over there. Especially since I've given a lot of thought to monetary origins, I'd like to comment on the description of Mesopotamian money origins, but am really not yet familiar enough with the underlying factual material to do so meaningfully. The books sent by Tim Cullen are waiting for me in Kinderhook, and after reading them if there is something I can offer, I certainly will. In checking on the Knapp quotation from my Menger refutation ("I hold the attempt to deduce (the nature of money) without the idea of a state to be not only out of date, but even absurd." (STATE THEORY OF MONEY p.vii) I see that this particular quote did not get into the German book, though it is in the English version. The following Knapp quotations are in Chapter 22 of my German book excerpted below, in case they are useful to you: [Feder's views could easily have originated from the work of German monetary theorists such as George Knapp, whose book THE STATE THEORY OF MONEY (1905) is still one of the classics in the monetary area. Right on page one, Knapp got it: "Money is a creature of the law. A theory of money must therefore deal with legal history." Knapp describes the invention of fiat money in these terms: "The most important achievement of economic civilization, the chartalism of the means of payment." For Knapp, the determination of whether something was money or not was: "Our test, that the money is accepted in payments made to the States offices." George Knapp; STATE THEORY OF MONEY; 1909, Macmillan, 1924; p.92-95.] Looking forward to meeting you in New York. With warm regards, Stephen Zarlenga 

A final word on Knapp (after quoting Mises):
Thus, even the colllapse of the paper money standard was a “success” for the State Theory of Money. LvM. --- [NOTE: The “State Theory of Money” has been the basis of the monetary policies of most governments in this century. Mises frequently credited the book of Georg Friedrich Knapp (3rd German edition, 1921; English translation by H. M. Lucas and J. Bonar, State Theory of Money, London, 1924) for having popularized it among German-speaking peoples. Knapp held that money was whatever the government decreed to be money—individuals acting and trading on the market had nothing to do with it.  -------------Yeah riat, on the contrary, the market monies are needed to keep the state monies in line as much as vica versa!!!!!!! (see Beckerath)


 59246 Comment on (and imperative concommitant to) street action plus a comment on Mises' (malicious? . . .well certainly maligning) misinterpretation of GFKnapp (now reading his 'freeing of the farmers').

reclaiming.org/ This page has been accessed 26,836 times since 02/19/2001  Join wrecklamentation the new rowalesion; IT wants YOU.  Linking magic and activism????  Wonder how many people are 'attracted' (led astray? Why am I always hard on the people I have if not the most affinity with, a lot of concern for?) by this abuse of youthful enthusiasm; Starhawk on the other hand doesn't let on; they are all out of my league webbywise. No wonder with glibear giffies like this!   Check out 'the charge of the goddess:  I be leaf it, but just don't believe it works in 'the street' for a minute folks (unless you wanna go for that asphalt grinding plant planting routine but I would not pick the hardest place possible for that unless it was within the realm of possibilities, matter of fact, the harder the rock, the more I like the crack and cleavitsio!!!!), sorry; you know, it is a little like a rainbow gathering vs the park in A'dam; all good folks eaten up by the rag, fray, smog and grog whereas they would do great with baby babylons, after the fashion of early Cato institute, now attracting all the perverts cause they had something going for themselves (don't all once loved up neighbearhorsds end up in a co-optation grinder); Starhawk and co are bringing their own heads on platters to be subverted some more so there can be vehement reclamation 'work' afterwards. Is that in order to not make people too outright and murderously jealous or something? I don't see the fun. I just like their logo. Starhawk goes:  the ritual is interrupted and their legitimacy is undercut. --- No, it is contested and we don't have the clout to do that. We must withdraw it, cut ourselves out and away from it by means of a give and take our cuts to and fro the bottom, rite where we are (best able to); choosing autonomizable locales must be our stay and story. Just as economy caused ethnic strife (there is no other except for perhaps massification induced overflow and erosionary cultural 'values' and habits) is and has been solved with relocations we must concentrate on infoshop.org/paz/
 
 
 
 

60400 proffersoftfuck sequel (he got fined and lost his computer to the police but posts undaunted and headstrong as if he had a constitutional right to be angry to the degree of typing personal threads; well, I've been angry at cops before too; praised and admired them elsewhere but the trouble with the difference between justifiable anger and threats is that it resides in Tone as well as repetition; are they fuquelike or intensifying in a menacing way? Over half of music and film sold is violent and hardly more fictitious. Poor Matt, put a bucket over your head next time you feel the urge to blow off steam and keep the neigbouring precinct station away from you computer  -  - -  if you ever get it back).
 

60738 A gripping passage from an Alan Sillitie novel ( Feeling revolutionary lately? Can't quite find a word for it?  Expose thee to the expert. Matt, Gladiolator, anybody else?  . .. . The more fabulously fictitious the truth is dressed up, the more nakedly truthfull the money. . .may( . . .)be) or may I substitute an im- to transpersonal storyline with personable money concommitance? Gripping, not grippyesque as in my bloodkindling but in a conventionally bloodcurdling fashion. Excerpt from 'the flame of life' by Alan Sillitoe (1976 Star Books, page 74)
 

Let's get into bashing bible and other holy book bullies shall we?    pflp-pal.org  Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine  I go: Does this site crash anybody else's browser??  De groene Amsterdammer this week is nicely diverse; new intellectuals singing praise of colonial capitalism; famous women at the mercy of/loyal to whoever got their G-oat despite whatever follows and phallows Arafat proving his warning to the UN years ago wasn't an empty promise; he said: "I come with the olive branch and the pistol of the freedom fighter, don't make me drop the olive" Well, they didn't, they wrenched it from him, amputated it. What a pathetic bunch of bad news.  ---- PS: this week's Vrij Nederland contains, just like all Dutch media lately, which is a BIG turnaround I have to give 'm credit for, some hefty criticism of Israel except where Max van Weezel tells us Arafat refused the unrefusable offer from Barak (You would think Israeli's should be highly sensitive to refugee problems, yet MvW doesn't think it worth a figuring in his equations); the NYRoB isn't quite convinced yet either, it allows Avishai Margalit to voice the opinion that israeli's believe the Palestinian grievance is inconsolable before summing up this that and the other illegal action and expressing faith in an acre for acre swap   ------  60450 confusion over Rapoport (Israeli fled into Palestine) by majdur at imc israel and clear ups by rq (for instance: ZNet and ACOI and New Profile seem to think that helping conscientious objectors in Israel is an important battle) , then the second comment:  Ifaraneye toothtotooth, one by one? by piet 3:06am Sun Aug 26 '01  Just a passing thought (uttered while well aware it will be taken for ((though not intended as)) an offense):  Let's say the decisive people (policymakers, lobbyists and other ef- af- and influentials) are good at doing things in bulk, 'en masse' and cetera. Now would it not distract attention from such moves if all the world hears about the Middle East anymore (day after day, practically hour after hours in Holland whereas, when a month or so ago a weapon went through the press, a deafening silence ensued) is that they have prudently and frugally limited themselves to and matched the body counts (well within a factor of 20 anyways, that is a restraint America will never match with its three digit record in Iraq) that maddeningly modest means have managed to claim? Or is it just a conscience appeaser. Retaliation (vergelding in dutch; geld is money, geldig is valid) equitability??? Either way, having too little to lose will kill as surely as having too much to gain.---------------59743 shows june jordan shining a black light on the Middle East  --------- awitness.org/eden_wing/wing_pic.html this guy is funny (treeplanting ufologist who does guided tours of the latter in the woods and manages to make it sound levelheaded half the time, but he is probably just as luny as our dear messenger); he correlates cloudformation above the sahara with all sorts of prophecy and biblical 'revelation'. . . .well, sure enough that cloud looks like a wing alright  ---------------- This morning (friday) I read a lady evangelist who was convicted for asserting Jews were to blame for the fate they called and drew upon them in 98 has had the incriminating article up on the net but as soon as she made notice of it (the reporter leaves us in the dark about what this might entail)her server pulled it.   Now contrast this with  61725 (two numbers down) please. I am glad to post all this on a US server; people around here turn out to be more wacked than the good old USies in this respect but the entire extreme right already knew that I guess.  - - -  - - The plot thickens with item: 61946  where awitness comes up with a storm of about 30 nasty Bible quotes (a mere few of which promptly get denounced by stepbystepfarm@shaysnet.com), this one gets no attribution but it sounds like one of the worst (apart from the bloodshed bits):   Yes the land is foul because of the filthiness of the natives. The land is filled with filth from end to end because of the foulness of the natives...  Yes, the land has become foul because of the filthiness of the natives. It is filled with filth from end to end because of the foulness of the natives. They have become disgusting in our sight and a thorn in our side. Because of our sin against god the leaders of the natives are now disposing of our wealth. The land is even fouler because of the filthiness of the foreigners. It is foul and filthy from end to end because of the foulness of the foreigners. awitness.org/prophecy/ israel_last_days_end times_prophecy  -------------------  61735 on Zionism; I go: So you say Jews learned present day nastyness from the Natsies eh? By the same logic I maintain that the Naatsies looked back at the Gulag and got stock with a few undigestible psychonuggets impelling them to act out what they won't manage to get a grip on. There is gonna be no end to it with such vindictiveness about. Cut everybody's balls of if they can't bear that luxury without hankering after arms except the baby fat purged loving kind I too so sorely miss.  ----------------

 Report on the racism conference by Eric Mann, a Jewish LA busrider union planning commitee member citing from Castro's speech (don't worry, sparingly) and having this to say for (but not about) himself: " In fact, the U.S., as an anti-Semitic country, does not give a damn about Jews or for that matter about Israel; rather the U.S. government is using Israel as its stalking horse in the Middle East"   ------------ As if there wasn't enough confusion already; if this 'insight' is typical, there won't be a fount of solutions spray-a-splayin' forth from all this; there is more to be said for a (re)read of the recent LTS article reviewing episodes of slavery throughout human history than attempts to conjure up 'reparations' other than the jubilee type and I would applaud a set of gentle nudges towards extric- / segreg- and autonomization, I mean the type measures that would (re)dot the landscape like a checkerboard blick city white village whate city black village sort of thing maybe. Truth is none of the human races pass exams on keeping their place green and clean, least of all those now showing to have remained greenest since that is due to passive betrayals (in 'favor' of active violations of otherwheres) and clement weathers, both of which won't last. Finding out who lost, forfeit or violated what and whom may be a side effect of surging humility but who wants to know when there's a garden to tend together?

The new British Columbia government has recently announced that it will go ahead with a province-wide referendum on Aboriginal treaty negotiations. Perhaps in response, two Aboriginal Nations are laying claim to the territory upon which the BC legislature sits.-----I go: Telling Negro's to stop dancing, Indjuns to sell land and comets to fuck off don't work so we invent greasy clog grub and cars to sit in, pieces of paper that say people have claims to this and that and a scifi rocket or two by which time every once lively thing suffers big time; white man, kill your evil addictions recall your evil delegations and find freedom within reasonable limits.
 

63015 every body here is mighty peaceful, even colonel Gaddafi!!!!! Different elsewhere it seems but what I haven't heard yet is skin-colour for the knife wielders; hey and what if they turn out to be Arabs? Good for israel. No wonder they tried to run away from them and then when discovering that they were nolens volens considered and had probably become Arabs intellectually (if only cause they hung out in the region too long not to), thought they might as well go back home and fight it; they restarted as hybrid refugees from a small pool and stock; numerous the times in the Bible the 'chew-see' people sprout from a mere one pair only (the seperation of self-importance that gives hyrarchy a  bad name) ..  . peope aren't as mechanical as billiards, more like nuclear warheads, they take impacts-n-infections on and over with an added edge an increment due to invested resistance heaping resentments between generations, between even the least remote . . .. . . .

I just signed up next-ape@netscape.net (for my father and) to try and point to a need and service offered: greater impact on harder parts and lumpier chunks of, while living off and above the ground; GROW HOME!!!!!!!


 
ZEE A MERRY KIN ZPIRIATE
(part 2; part 1 lives in sept2.htm)
'ergens in blijven' translates two ways; 
in a temporal way and a spacial one
1) stay in something (usually a particular and specified space rather than something or -where)or remain there, when 'verblijf' (not to be confused with 'verwijf' = effeminate) refers to the verb rather than the noun (and the space which can be left unspecified now in favor of duration for instance)it simply refers to staying IN. ---- A Grist magazine item called SLIM SHADY is on about loss of urban greenery and cites research finding that well as opposed to not shaded urbanage makes for half the crime. I am afraid it makes for  thousandfold type difference in income as well.
2) remainder ourselves (dead, croak from some cause), attempt our blijven en verblijf in something that doesn't allow us to survalive it sustainably no matter (and/or bycause of) how big and impressive, we then  in the attempt to remain (e). Footnote serving double duty (the other as caption to the pic a quarter of the way down this file): Whom does this multiple suck(<h>er) up depiction reflect badly upon? Women, men or both??

 
 
63196 and uk The us reaps what it has sown.   -----  62961 Seumas Milne explains why Americans can't see why theyt are hated. (wedn. sept 12; the guardian)  ------ 63534 Far from being terrorists of the world, Islamic peoples have been its victims  by John Pilger 4:09pm Thu Sep 13 '01 British documentarian and journalist John Pilger cuts through the rhetoric and cynical exploitation of the terrible events in New York and Washington, to reveal the underlying causes of Anti-Western sentiment. Pilgers site is worth a visit to delve beneath the seamless wall of lies covering Western terrorism and covert war.    -----    63651  Inevitable ring to the unimaginable  by John Pilger 10:47pm Thu Sep 13 '01If the attacks on North America have their source in the Islamic world, who can really be surprised? see also: pilger.carlton.com

VS

63678 Rumours persist that the French and Israeli secret services had uncovered this plot a while ago. - Failure of the intelligence community   Loren also uncovered the Yemenite Heroin-Arms Traficking Connection in the 94th Precinct in Brooklyn. .......  On Monday Morning Sept 3, Mr. Loren was attacked in front of his home. Loren survived the ARAB attack and called the Police, nothing was done.  "They either didn't believe our sources or they wanted it covered up and let happen. We gave them the base of operations in New York leading right up to Boston, and they chose to do nothing about it." Loren states.     -------- Me: Suprisingly Dean loren is a hotmail man (dean_loren@ = fan?); he would not be allowed to report on arabs in amsterdam from our very own squat.net info internet cafe (in the basement of the radical bookstore ((being threatened right now with a 900% rent increase iow goodbye subsidy, hello market conformity)) selling reactionary junk to cover for the good stuff like Chomsky and Adilkno whom I discovered yesterday) since they expressly prohibit use of BillyGoats's products and organize Linux courses.He could go knock here maybe:  greenpep@eyfa.org at http://squat.net/cia/infocafe/exchange.html;  but though they sit on/in a prime location yet manage to not open for more than 14 hours a week?????   -----  All rite, I'm losing patience here; I'll pay 10 bucks an hour to do some close reading of my site and 40 dollars for a page of criticism (may consist of up to one third quotes) while supplies last.  -----  Pensievepiet Bursts O pen and Blocks X pen  ----  Pensievepiet Bursts O pen to Block X pen ---   ....  and I dont know how to finish this rainbow thread yet   .. .. .ah wait: sub car pet sweep (the pets are weeping under the carpet? NO!!!)  ----- the best mobilization possible is sweeping dust under and to 'keep' a preferable green one in and of mother's  nature; stuff her pockets with the humblest kin to the infamous girl's best friend!!!!   ----  All rite i am moving over to the english leg of this journey (uk.indymedia.org)  cause I can't reach indy glowball that good anymore; it's become entirely too popular for its britches I mean bank account; it's the wages of not metering as a matter of principle i guess; there don't seem to be enoug repentents of Soros caliber around to keep us up to speed, I mean our speed up.

 
 
 

indy12
 

 http://poetpiet.tripod.com/2001/indy11.htm (the last third of this 84K file is about the terror attack; the tenor of comment on which I liked at www.indymedia where I have practically lived for months (posts in double digits) but the increase in traffic there makes it practically unreachable frrom Amsterdam so I hope yall will welcome me here (not all indy's pipe through the same peep rite?).  So, since my regular haunts are too busy to post easily so I hope to use you folks here as an outlet (at least for a while; a dutch indy seems(im)pending, had a sneak at the logo and it is the prettiest I have seen so far) - ---- Melbourne indy 16251: see a merry kin spear it (headfirst, earthlast?)   by piet 4:04am Sat Sep 15 '01 moving here after months of posting at www.indy bycause traffic has gotten to thick for their (not too fat wallet in) britches up there.     --<repeat of the above> +:  Hey 11? 110 stories, the day of intuitive knowledge; Allende, who and what else?  ---    Heroism has a revealing few layers in Dutch: heldendom; pulling that word into three gives 'hero and dumb', I hope that is toheart(-t)akable  ---   szee a merry kin spirate is a foreign phoneticization of the american spirit of course. But let me find the fraying edges and transformative nuance for you, the place where tolerance gets loud and clearly troubled, mirroring the mechanical forms. So let's begin to associate shall we? What better place to do so than with the most truly multicultural crown of such a kindom in mind, not forgetting the fact that it has just been knocked of off . . .. well, a mere reeking spirit perhaps, even if it grandiosely ambitious and to some extent justifiable proud of its preening and grooming abilities; it has kept a clean conscience throughout all those years of 'sallies' to visit themselves upon their fellow 'nations' (see the bits in pale yellow below; last fourth of the file). Spire/pire associates with ashes, sacred fires an churches of course (sanctification through ashes tales, or plain fresh rock dust preferably); as-, ex- res- and plain piration is not hard to contemplate from there, neither are Pi and spy rates I should think. Church and  --- uk indy 11418 a spy rited one indeed; and irredeemably schizo as it turns out. Well I did some posting about it and you might as well come to my site to see it cause the global indy site is totally clogged, 11508 and la.indy 10271: szee a merry kin spare it  by piet 10:53am Fri Sep 14 '01    Epiphany anyone? I seen a pic of survivor with briefcase still in hand though covered with a generous helping of ashes to present the spectre of saintliness given the sort of cathedral facade like skeleton of a last lattice scrap left standing behind this cognitarian pawn, symbol sorter in saddhu disguise. <+ same as above).
 
 

Indy item by a notorious foulmouth but he has point why not target leaders exclusively by extremely well trained folk and disband armies completely .... .or would that cause the kind of vicious cycle we see in hot head countries????

   63991 Why george bush must die. (english)  by proffr1@nospambutfuckmicrosoft.com 3:31am Sat Sep 15 '01 (Modified on 10:51am Sat Sep 15   '01)
 
 

64665 Dutch government at war  Me (tried all afternoon and evening to post versions of this unsuccesfully):The heading in inane. .. so much in fact that I feel implicated for even responding to it but in as far as it is simply misleading I thought it worthwile to report the tenor of the progressive / mainstream dailies (Parool, Volkskrant, Trouw en NRC) and weeklies (Groene, HP de Tijd en Elsevier) and although I read newspapers very selective, no headline escapes me so I feel justified to make the following statement.  In all of them I think it is safe to say that on the whole (implies a decided majority no?) articles therein evince a tendency to call for reflection, (self)restraint and introspection in order to forstall, break and pass on this latest rude attempt / invitation to the next round of spiralling into more and more vicious violence.  It is not entirely lacking in American media either: (nando times via today's robotwisdom.com)  ---  A good example of level headed reporting appeared last saturday in the NRC; a picture of an Arab swilling from a coke bottle in front of a big billboard thereof took up half a page to accompany a set of arguments that would seem more like an indictment than an advertisement.  The rest of this post is not representative of said article but refers to some minor glitches in it (I tend to believe one must dwell on mental eye-sore spots but never on physical ones ((though reaching the former 'through' the latter is as valid as common sense)); on the contrary, an all out conversion of armament into gardening equipment is the main objective of pertinent piet's place and the way to deserve such a name).
 
 
 

Indy13 hilit:
 

No. 93-D 99 ... The nominee aided and abetted a man who was arguably this century's most notorious American traitor -- Philip Agee -- and is determined to conceal that fact. ... www.security-policy.org/papers/1993/93-D99.html - 23k -h On the contrary, he is one of the few sane and suitable people that would make decent president material!!!!!  --------------

65134 points to a stunning page by otoons.de  the osho folk!, a very aesthetic (to the point of fanaticism or simply expertise?) bunch of webdesigners ==
 
 

Indy14
 


 67435 (one of the many responses Alex teases out with relentless and tireless postings): you wanna edictate? (english) by piet 11:44am Wed Sep 26 '01 My mooi, Heh, I'll hand it to you, a kudo for takin trouble with the sofi-stick-hated ling-king and all that. But what does it amount to other than yet another sermony something. Rally what, who with, where, to what degree, etc? Silence. I think it proves one thing but at least good. Yall are suckered into the mass media. I notice it on the few lists I go to look at. Intelladdiction of a kind I do without. I have a proposal also: divide the indy info streams into at least two: analysis and initiatives. The second would be my favorite. You would see a co-ordination of and by those who will relocate to create a little critical clout in a sustainable way. I think the most sympathetic post lately was the yet another try by shunka to recruit help for/in Mattole. As for education: I think I have gathered some (27Mb site now) terrestrially (though less and less realisable but NOT YET EVER NEVER) applicable (as in valid) rules of thumb and other digit-, dust- and duty calls. give me a workover and oh by the way my mirroring is going pretty smoothely now if you don't mind a mere once per 24 update.

(boo shout or boom bout?)
President Bush ain't even a proper Busher
he is an arms and deserts pusher
We either push the displeasing bush out

or suffer severely diseasing 'clout'

68352  Arabophilly-n-phobia follies n fineries  Caught between Finkelstein, Lawrence of Arabia to one side and Berlusconi with Bush, mouthpiece for the worst America has to offer on the other I try to recall better voices and the better voiceless betterment.  Ps: still mirroring for the slowpokes. No more newswire trouble! A little DIY click tinkering is again needed though as of yesterday's, all added to /post27sep-tinker-clicksYesterday I brushed the frontbumper of a taxi with my leg having to go through a long line of them here in A'dam; the driver (notoriously competitive ((read: gangsters)) all the way to the top) leans into his horn and starts blaming me for being scum, a tramp, a hobo, etc.  I tried to calm him in appreciation for his accurate intuition and see if he wouldn't attempt to soften to some semblance of Dutch calm but the utter and traditional disrespect and contempt for bicylces (once these people find themselves in a car they will try to aggravate bicyclists as muc as they can) bespoken by his demeanor was insurmountable(not that he tried, on the contrary)and will be unbudgable to the 7th generation I fear. The young man was a meaty Arab.  I was tempted to ask which of us found himself several thousands of miles astray from some sort of traditional home base. I did tell him he should go to Arabia somewhere if he liked blowing his horn so much; everybody does it there without so much as raising an eyebrow but such practice is here frowned upon as being excessive although the Dutch will swallow anything and go to their own extremes of meekness (big different from humility if you ask me) towhich is what makes proud, intolerant and inflammable Arabs in Holland such a snug fit with lately most obvious, gruesome consequences (most of them can't handle that sort of freedom any better than Indians alcohol ((giving it to them is token of our even greater shame and intrusive presence in their cultures)); Christ these people can't even be neighbourly or build any reputable goodwill with the Spanish (and that seems as permanent or as close to final and repeatedly can get; check the once popular Feuchtwanger and the now undeservedly not as widely known Guy Gavriel Kay fictional evidence.Ah that reminds me of a fault I found with my frontpage formula where one reads (till I change it): friction fraction versus fiction faction but that will becomefriction faction vs fiction fraction or maybe factfuck fiction vs frict- fract mater-ofaction . . ..we will soon be able to admire a televised rejuvamping of tribal permaculture brought to you by the US army to rival hanging gardens of babylon or am I wrong to stick to my dreams? Get reality all stuck and sticky with work on them?).    Post script some days later: I went in front of the State museum where an acquantance of mine (Klaus) is still posting himself periodically with his worn and otherwise obscure banner; sunday, the sun is shining and I am planning to cut throught the big open meadow behind it to catch some. I look at him and try to wave while he pretends not to see me (it has become impossible to talk to him anymore; he 'suspects' me of being part of the conspiracy against him which lumps me in with most of western european officialdom), stubborn as I am I am waving and sticking up my thumb in my madcap cheeriest way standing up on the pedals and all the while looking at him backward in the meanwhile. I was on the car lane (illegally) and next thing I know is a WHAM and I am standing there with a bent fork by a trunkdent in the sportsy new car that stopped (in front of) me. Somebody short, slim and nice looking gets out and wastes little time in uttering the suspicion I will not have enough money to pay for the damages and suggest he will let his insurance take care of it, in between demanding assurance that I am indeed alright a few times.  This amazingly sympathetic man was either Italian or arab, spoke English and drove a Dutch car.  Now, how's that for contrast???

The kamikaze intructions set the suicidee's sights on "overcoming a thousand adversaries (read: encroaching ((since immodest)) neighbours) with a hundred" (arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=9320),  I for one, can't help but toss the mirrors at disposal around till the lights of/in truth are no longer so singular, merciless, final, unbufferable and unsplit as desert ones tend to be. We might see the brightness, bride and bridle tides differently without losing the validity in/of the bravery / superiority / well preparedness argument for BOTH sides (simplifying to the duality stage is primitive at best but hey, that is what militant/militarism episodes are and do best, all they do and are even), in other words the fascinating cultural relativity aspects of ethnic strife can serve to give us pause if we look at Arabs the Lawrence, the aesthete and the Berlusconi way by contrast (rogue the latter is, decorum ((his specialty the dignity of the abyss, colosally close relation to the subject at hand)) still entails some densely shaded places in Italy, not just the few and far between oasis of the more 'hospitable' people ((a strange reputation that, if you see the distances seperating them as barriers to being called on their bluff but since they weren't thrown up intentionally what CAN you call them to account for; impulse and justice are never happily teamed till the former is a well dosed impact and then I am not thinnking of the subject at hand but hopes for musical rock grinders cheerfully on the march into the arid scar called Afghanistan doomaloom on into the head I groom though no bride want it; hey guess what it will have to make its way as a church anyway cause the results won't exactly be spectacular)) in those especially trying circumstances unless piping water for a decade becomes feasable)as follows: suppose the invading, numerically superior tribes interested in (oilof?) deserts (or the former defending themselves from the latter spreading; the Zionist way used to have it: the heavily weighted gardening aspect of their endeavors)  were also claiming the modesty and prudence prize and would have the fact that their culture/climate (which follows which? Hamaker vs Saharasia?) simply supports more life ....... (biology, calories in action near the surface; never mind oil for a minute OK?) ...... speaking in favor of the veracity of such convictions but I might as well stop since the schizo-analysis is interminable when people hold on to convictions forced upon them by circumstance but perpetuate practices that called, brought and visited those very same conditions upon them very lingeringly, however undesirable, distasteful and much resented.>>>  ---- OH OH, set somebody off thanking me  . .. for an opportunity to use a colourfilter (ain't Ctrl A enough for yall?).
 
 
 
 

67704 diversion for slowpokes (english) by mirrorman 4:58am Thu Sep 27 '01 http://poetpiet.tripod.com/indymedia-newswire-mirror; no article so don't bother; I am sick and tired of endless stories justifying police provocation; it's when they come claim 'rights' while we go about remedying absentee ownership/intermittent and -minable explaytoytion habits we have a rite to/and can ignore/annoy them. have to put sum tang here or it won't go, so there: Period ---------
 

69592  mirror will improve; no more diy tinker for you by piet 2:28am Wed Oct 3 '01  I found out adding the root URL doesn't take more time than uploading the 6 or 7 daily files so I'll do that too and perhaps take the side bar off so I can stash twice as much. What do you think of all 6 files in one? 80--100K OK? PS: don't bother the click unless you wanna comment.  ---- Getting Better by Lizard 6:47am Wed Oct 3 '01 lizard@yippie.zzn.com    I'm really starting to like what you're doing here... before all you could get was the summaries, but now you're creating a catalogue of the newswire daily, but it links back to the original article on IMC. This is good, because following links to old stories was never difficult on IMC, but the hardest things to do often are find the articles on the newswire backlogs (which is often slow and sometimes doesn't work-- plus you can't search by date like you can here... I understand though! Indymedia is a busy site and they do amazingly well considering what they are undertaking!!!) and the search functions. This site, given some more time and attention, could actually help that along. I would be willing to help you with some of the grunt HTML work if you would want to send the files back and forth through email. Another thing you could do (which I'm not sure exactly how the logistics would be worked out but it would be really cool) is to set up a functional search engine of the mirrored pages.. it would require come CGI work in PERL or something, and I'm not sure if Lycos would let you do that. But just a suggestion... contact me if you want some assistance.  www.freespeech.org/yip2000

69582 Michael Kelly in the WashPost on 'phony pacifists' (sits in the oct-third-prfr.htm); first comment: As a darwinian anarchist  by beard of the proffr. 2:11am Wed Oct 3 '01  Im proud and glad that so many people survived the WTC implosion by NOT obeying the reassuring calm words of authority coming over the PA. I hope they pass on their genes. On balance I'd argue those who avoid military duties at every opportunity have a slightly better chance of passing on theirs. I'm also optimistic in spite of it all that there will someday be some natural selection of good ideas.
69577 I was a Military Racketeer
69559  earthrepair.net I was 66th at the renewed site; I remember the opening page as the certificate type flyer Betsan Coats spread around during the eighties; they have but 3 sites in their linklist, here is the first:  ecowarriors.com.au where in turn there are 12 --- my comment: did any of the old (pun intended) hard core pragmatism survive the dormancy/lag period? I remember distincty The use of rockdust would not escape the type of large intro you are doing here in the old (Betsan Coats) days.

 googled up a parascope doc on Ralph McGehee and another by him (bycause proffr who accused Google of censoring usenet posts on this veteran yesterday the second of oct; tsk, that fella DOES alienate a lot of folk don' he?) and can now image what sort of paranoid rant we might thus be spared if what prfr says is true which I doubt. This can only have use as a show what/how fucked up people CIA are/become, much like the worst of the terrorising frictions poor old folks here in Holland have to put up with too.   meanwhile at the ideology front:  69956 post about decision; comment: assasination politics (english)  by jim bell 1:43am Thu Oct 4 '01 At the very least the 60 million reward should be encrypted.  If able to be collected anonymously its chances improve.1 of his wives might collect. Anyone using or advocating violence in politics should be targeted, by consensus,for assasination politics.Violence will never be eliminated but the best hope for minimising remains AP.  Going back to the bad old days of the cia is the way to ultimate disaster.So, if I fathom this right, Jim is hoping the CIA practice, sort of exactly what AP is but at a much earlier and opposite stage of development, can, will and must survive if only the targeting improves? When they manage to work out in the open as a central pillar of well distributed common sense, tackle violent people only and perhaps the occasional all too potentially violent ones. Thus weapons won't wear out at all for the while it takes to teach people force must be directed at death and not become deadly but the opposite.

4/9: Late (midday) mirror today; had to see the dentist (and after spending 300 soon to be phased out guildens on one side of my face I almost broke a bunch of teeth from a suddenly frontwheel blocking fender I had broken a piece of earlier that still early morning; I could have been dead if it had happened in oncoming traffic but as it was sprained my wrist and saw stars for a minute).   Added a magic touch to me mirror: <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#D66D" link="#B9D66D" vlink="#CC33CC" alink="#FFFF00"  text="white">

70570  Ik zou groen-groei-begroting van zon begroeten. I would welcome budgeting the greengrowth of sunshine. Am i skidz or is reality? (Alles kits? = E'rytin OK?). Do past present and future have them? Are they and do they do 'm? (schizkids). If reality is, has and does them we must leave off tracing continuities of irreversable undeniable fact; the more singular, harder and harsher they seeem the more they trail, tote, hide, bleed fade and phase into each other like fatter sunnier, and the hilly host its elves.   Climatological aspects, implications and schizpacts of cultural crush brought to you by zetscaper the netscaper (zet = move (chess); zet = (type) set, place and/or harden).   Bearing capacity decline calls for birth restrictions and/or death speeding. Expedition cheapens and/or dearthifies, that vicey virgin; vicey virus, why see versa till itty beats the bites a bitty. Splat. Oil is the green movement's claim to fame IF they can make friends and fists with those living 'on' it (tall order I know). Dealing and wheeling with it in thereof detractory ways as we predominantly do, runs a ddictively deficitatious wheezy way with it as all histories of mass moves prove. Fuels, fineries, funs (one fun two funs or funtoo?) feeding into each other making for highly metabolic, explosive and expansionary mixes. I say that we need a gender change in what is considered expedient and pragmatic.     LET'S PLAY ROCK, pretty much all we're left with soon at this rate anyways. That should ake for some solidarity at least, our rap will be as chronically annoyed as an arab rap by then. Fine prospect. I'm halfway there already. I disapprove strongly of alcohol (and that's putting it mildly) and the stuff entire generations of women get (and/or keep one) away with (and/or from) isn't cheering me any either. LET'S PLAY ROCK    lest surviving witnesses will be able  to remember the 20th century as just a gas.

  PS (the 7th): I spaced out changin' month no: -9- to -10- for the last three days but that is fixed now (and shouldn't have been a problem for anybody mindin' upload dates.





71881 Secularisation of Islam? Links to: http://www.secularislam.org/call.htm   --We know too well that it is not easy to denounce our faith because it means denouncing a part of ourselves. We are a group of freethinkers and humanists with Islamic roots. Discovering the truth and leaving the religion of our fathers and forefathers was a painful experience. But after learning what Islam stands for we had no choice but to leave it. After becoming familiar with the Qur'an the choice became clear: It is either Islam or humanity. If Islam thrives, then humanity will die. We decided to side with humanity. Culturally we are still Muslims but we no longer believe in Islam as the true religion of God. We are humanists. We love humanity. We work for the unity of humankind. We work for equality between men and women. We strive for the secularisation of Islamic countries, for democracy and freedom of thought, belief and expression. We decided to live no longer in self-deception but to embrace humanity, and to enter into the new millennium hand in hand with people of other cultures and beliefs in amity and in peace.  We denounce the violence that is eulogized in the Qur'an as holy war (Jihad). We condemn killing in the name of God. We believe in the sanctity of human life, not in the inviolability of beliefs and religions. We invite you to join us and the rest of humanity and become part of the family of humankind - in love, camaraderie and peace.-------- I doubt what this item purports to consider a viable solution will be popular anytime soon (the blurb suggests that Islam is not viable without Jihad; however I wonder if it is not possible to make the case there as here ((in the west)) that the difference between force where it makes (I should say could make) the best difference and violence is huge), but I have been thinking that Islam is indeed a huge failure in that the repression of desire, hedging and hemming it in with all sorts of penalties, taboos and restrictions has the counter productive effect of blowing a relatively benign sentiment out of the water so to speak; I mean Islamists seem to be the least capable of control in the sense of sublimation; their leisurely lifestyle (to guard against overheating) is of course conducive to the stop and go, explosion and downtime rhythm that clashes with the sustained effort of societies that have to bail to stay afloat on a very regular basis (smoothing out the peaks and troughs); those people having the most reason to prove to be least modest; I hit upon this train of thought when reading somebody's depiction of Islam as victims. Well, what do you want from a people that overflows (transgresses/crosses borders of) their territories at a rate even the jews will have trouble to match. Overgrazing and erosive behaviour is multiply unpardonabe when you pretend to such high religious standards, live in such sensitive areas and maintain the factors of population growth Muslims seem to think they can afford and justify.